NYLP: Welcome to the New York Launch Pod, the New York Press Club Award-Winning podcast highlighting startups, businesses, and openings in the New York City area. I’m your host and New York attorney Hal Coopersmith and in this episode, we talk to Jurrien Swarts. Jurrien is the co-founder of Stojo, a reusable collapsible coffee cup that you can take on the go without the mess. And if you think a reusable coffee cup is a small idea, it’s not. Approximately 16 billion, that’s right, 16 billion coffee cups are thrown away each year. Here’s Jurrien on why Stojo is thinking beyond the disposable coffee cup
Jurrien Swarts: It’s a focus on trying to delight customers and give them the best possible shopping experience they can get, it’s building trust, it’s being open and honest with who you are and who you’re not and then just inspiring people through your imagery and your copy; your video content and things like that.
NYLP: In this episode, we talk to Jurrien about why he left his job in finance to start Stojo, creating the product and a whole lot more! And if you’re interested in purchasing a Stojo go to stojo.co and use code NYLAUNCH for a limited time discount. and with that let’s go to the interview. What fascinates me about you is that you are a new company but not that new and people are talking a lot about the global plastic crisis right now, but you were ahead of the curve. When was Stojo invented and how did it come to be?
Jurrien: I was at Credit Suisse with my co-founder Alex in 2011 and we decided, after sharing some books, Tim Ferriss’ “Four Hour Work Week”, that we were going to come up with a product and Alex’s idea was a collapsible coffee cup, which I thought was a silly idea when he first proposed it. A couple of weeks later I was in the shower and I realized that I knew how to engineer it based on the design of a baby bottle so I sketched it out, it made a lot of sense and showed it to him and he was like, yeah, that’s it. And we basically use the Sea to Summit Cup, which is a collapsible camping cup, but it didn’t have a lid and added this lid, optimized it for coffee and we went out to design it. That’s when we ran into Ben, our third co-founder, who had left his job in consulting to work on a water bottle. He wanted to make a reusable water bottle and so he taught himself how to design and do CAD and we met him at a party and said, we’re trying to do this coffee cup. He said I’d love to help you with it and we decided right then and there to form a company and got to work. It took us 2 years from there to come up with a working prototype, which by 2014, I guess is when we launched our Kick Starter.
NYLP: That’s so interesting that you first thought it was a bad idea. Why did you think it was a bad idea and what changed your mind, aside from being in the shower?
Jurrien: When he proposed it, I’m a very kind of technical guy. I couldn’t imagine how somebody could make something that would work for coffee that would collapse because I was pretty familiar with the old camping cup with the three metal rings that would fold up into a little disk I had as a boy scout, and that thing would leak so it was only good for water. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that product…
NYLP: I remember the plastic ones.
Jurrien: Yeah, the plastic ones came later.
NYLP: And those were like the ones that you would use for brushing your teeth or like small little cups.
Jurrien: Exactly and that was a cheaper version I think that they had when we were probably kids. But if you were into outdoors and camping, they had metal versions and I think that was based on an original in 1908 or a 1911 patent when the person first invented it and it was a great little product, but coffee, everybody adds milk and sugar and it’s really sticky. So, then metal conducts heat so I was just in my head, I was like, it’s a non-starter, how would you do that? It took me a few weeks and it was like one of those literal aha moments. I wasn’t even really thinking heavily on it. I was just going about my routine in the morning and it just kind of hit me. And from that moment on, I was like, hmm, I think we could make this,
NYLP: You had this product that you wanted to develop. What was the angle that you were thinking about? Was it something of convenience? Was it environmental? Because as I stated from the outset, it seems like the environmental aspect is getting a lot of play.
Jurrien: Yeah. Right now everybody’s finally seeing all the writing on the wall and really starting to focus on climate change and the environment. I think for us, Alex had a couple kids by then, he had his children, a little bit older than mine, and I had one on the way. I’m originally from Vermont, so I grew up with nature and all that around me. So I’ve always kind of had a fundamental appreciation for the environment, but I’ve never been one of those, I don’t even want to say it, but a tree hugger or anything like that. But definitely I noticed that in finance, which is where we were working, I’d probably go through five cups of coffee a day and I felt bad about it. There was a little bit of guilt associated with that, especially when I learned that they’re lined with plastic to make them more waterproof I guess none of that gets recycled. It just goes to landfills. So, the trees were one thing that you’re cutting down, but the plastic was kind of a drag. So it took a little bit of the joy and pleasure out of drinking coffee, but at the same time. I was commuting from Brooklyn every day on the train and there was no way I was going to carry a travel mug with me. Because you finish your coffee 15 minutes into the commute and then you’re pressed up against 20 other people. And what do you do with that cup?
NYLP: What do you do with it?
Jurrien: I have no idea. And that’s why I never carried them with me. Because they’re bulky, they tend to leak, so, you can’t really put it in your bag, too big for your pocket. And I think that was kind of, as you start designing a product, you usually have a number of design objectives. You probably prioritize them, but for us it needed to be compact when it was put away. It needed to be a full sized coffee cup, at least a 10 or a 12 ounce cup when it was expanded and we needed it not to make a mess in your suit pocket or your bag after you were done drinking it. So that’s how we designed it. We designed it to capture the coffee residue after it was done in its collapsed position.
NYLP: And this is battle tested? So people with their really expensive banker suits or really expensive handbags, they can take that coffee or tea residue from that cup and put it in that expensive item and not have it leak? That’s a guarantee?
Jurrien: Yeah, it’s a guarantee in the sense that we’ve sold about a million units since we started and anybody who’s ever written in and said, I had a problem with leakage or whatever. A lot of times when it does leak, it tends to be because, as I’ll show you in a little bit, this cup comes apart fully. It’s got five main parts and there are no adhesives or glue in making them and we did that so there were no nooks and crannies. So when you try to wash it, there’s no residue or mold build-up like a lot of products out there. So when people reassemble it, if they haven’t taken the time to learn how to do it properly, there is a little bit of a trick to it and sometimes people come back and they’re like, hey, it totally leaked and I’m pissed. So what we do is, we take them through the process usually either on the phone or by email or send them a video at this point and 90% of the time they’re like, oh my God, I totally did that wrong. Sorry. Much like the company Zappos, we really focus on customer service. It’s probably one of the things that we focus on the most and our premise is that we’re selling a commodity item. And so what we want to do through all touch points of the buyer experience is to delight our customers so that they’ll come back and they’ll tell other people and that turns them into brand evangelists. So, it’s a core kind of value for the company and the amount of complaints has been extremely low.
NYLP: Well that is amazing because my biggest fear in terms of thinking about this or using this, is that leakage issue. I mean, you probably have a better name for it than I do, but that it’s going to ruin what I have around me and you’re so confident in this design that we’ll talk about that you have solved it.
Jurrien: We’ve got a video of me filling up a cup with boiling hot coffee and then literally just shaking it as hard as I can and throwing it up and catching it a few times just to kind of show how robust that seal is. Now we’re not suggesting any listening viewers go out and try and play football with the thing. We really made it so that it’s leak proof in terms of accidental knock overs and the real kind of leak proof claim that we have is that when it’s empty from coffee and there’s just residue leftover and you collapse it and you seal it up, that it’s going to be leak proof. So we definitely have disclaimers in the packaging and the instructions not to try and use it like a flask or thermos. It wasn’t intended for that, but most recently we had a woman who wrote us and she emailed our support center and she was telling the story about how her husband was riding his bike, had a Stojo, he wiped out and she ran over to him and she grabbed the Stojo and she picked it up and not a single drop had spilled out of the cup. And we were just going over that in our weekly meeting and somebody was like, well, so what happened to your husband?
NYLP: I was going to say that!
Jurrien: And there was no mention of the husband. So, I think he’s probably still all right. And if you’re listening to this, thank you for the demo, but, yeah, it’s pretty funny, right?
NYLP: If you’re listening to this let them know how the husband is, and we’ll skip the live demonstration on you at this point. But let’s talk about this design a little bit. You mentioned the five items here. We’re looking at this, but let’s try to describe this the best that we can. It looks like I’m holding a 16 ounce mug because you have little notches on the inside.
Jurrien: Yep. We’ve got fill lines on the inside that, depending on which size you have, which kind of span, the most common coffee and beverage sizes and that helps with the barista so that you could go in there with one of our bigger cups and potentially order a smaller coffee and just pay for whatever it is you’re getting. People seem to like that feature, but fundamentally, there’s a silicone cup that will collapse which sits into a collar that’s made out of polypropylene, which is number five recyclable plastic. It’s probably one of the most robust plastics out there. It’s safe in high heat, it has the lowest kind of potential to leech into food so that that collar is kind of like the threaded part that the lid will screw onto. The seal is created between the rim of the silicone cup, which sits on the collar and it gets pinched between the lid and that creates that seal. So when I said I had that inspiration when we designed it, that’s actually if you take apart a baby bottle that has a plastic reservoir to hold the milk, a plastic collar, that’s the screw cap. Then there’s a silicone nipple that has a flange and the seal gets created between the two pieces of plastic in that silicone. So we use that same concept to create the lid. Then finally there’s a stopper also made out of silicone that creates the leak proof lid and I said finally, and I shouldn’t have, there’s the final pieces, actually the heat sleeve, which is really important because it’s just like a Starbucks heat sleeve. It’s also made out of polypropylene and it actually provides rigidity to the cup’s structure in that it keeps your fingers from getting burned.
NYLP: So it’s a telescoping silicone cup with those items that you mentioned in the sleeve. So it makes it look like a kind of a regular cup but just a little bit different and made out of silicone.
Jurrien: Yeah, it’s got a pretty distinct, I’d say silhouette. Our first retailer, which is probably one of the proudest moments in Stojo history, even though it’s a short history, was when the MOMA design store approached us to carry us in their store. And we’ve been there since the first retail client was them and we’re still there to this day. So it’s pretty cool being in the design store.
NYLP: That is a phenomenal retail outlet. One of my favorites. And you mentioned that it took you two years to come up with this five item cup, which you’ve just described. What was that process like because you articulate it so simply now, but I have to imagine that it must’ve been very difficult.
Jurrien: Yeah. When you take a long journey, you don’t really appreciate what went into it until you look back. It didn’t seem like work. It was actually just really fun. We all had our day jobs, but this was something that we really got excited about and we just kind of bonded over and it was kind of like our baby, you know, it was part engineering, part design, so artistic kind of expression and then the whole prospect of coming up with a name and learning how to go through the whole IP process and how to register a domain and then how to build a website and then how to launch a Kick Starter and shoot a video and all that stuff. It was just such a great learning experience. But you know, we did it on the side, nights and weekends and all of us were in relationships and some of us had kids. And there’s only a certain amount of time when you’re working a job in finance in New York City that you can dedicate to a side project.
NYLP: Right. I was going to say that you have a full time job, a demanding full time job. Seems like your other co-founders, one in finance, the other in consulting also working very hard. How much time were you devoting to this? What was that process like?
Jurrien: You know it’s one of those things where when you get passionate about something, you’re spending a lot of your ambient downtime thinking about it. So it’s really hard to quantify that ambient downtime. You know what I mean? Those little moments when you’re waiting on the bus or for a meeting or you’re in the elevator, you find yourself daydreaming and you know, I think we spent a lot of man hours combined, kind of in that mode. So no idea how to quantify that. I think between the two of us or the three of us rather, I think we probably spent a good 10-20 hours a week working on it each. So a lot of time went into it.
NYLP: That’s a lot of ambient downtime and I feel like a lot of people have had those kind of ideas, those ambient downtime ideas to use your term where they think, all right, this is the idea that I have that will make the world better. This is my Tim Ferriss idea. But a lot of people give up and that’s the reality. What made the three of you continue on and say, you know what, this is something that we have to do and we are going to see this to fruition. Because like you said, you have those demanding jobs, you have families and relationships and most of the time people give up.
Jurrien: I guess I’d be answering off the cuff and I’m answering for my two co-founders. So, they might have a different take on it. But first I’d say that all three of us are the kind of people who, when we say we’re going to do something, we do it, so there’s a certain level of, I think, personal integrity that a person has to have to get something done. And then I think when there are multiple parties, you hold each other accountable, whether it’s directly or just the concept of the fact that there’s another person involved and then when people around you are questioning you or giving you grief about it, if you have a certain type of personality, you know, that kind of motivates you as well. So I think those are kind of the three things, you know. For me personally, once I actually had to put some money down, and it wasn’t big money, but once I started diverting funds out of my household and I have a partner, or as before I was single, but, I had a significant other, my wife, I think that made it more real too, because the last thing you want to do with a new wife, is take a bunch of money, blow it on something that’s a pipe dream and then not make good on it. So that’s certainly one of the motivating things for me. And then the other thing is, there’s all these touch points where you share it, you share it with other people. And when with Stojo, because I can’t really talk to a whole lot of other things that I have experienced, but with Stojo over time as more and more and more people were like, yeah, God, I’ve always been looking for something like this and it didn’t exist and then one day I Googled it and there you were. That gives you a lot of energy. It’s a great feeling. I mean it’s probably like a little glimmer of what it’s like to be like a famous person or a celebrity where you know, somebody comes up to you and they’re like, oh man, you really inspired me or something. You know, for that one moment you’re kind of the man and you’re a little bit more important, in life, and when it’s a stranger, and they’re like, thank you for that. I think that gives you a lot of energy.
NYLP: One of the things that you mentioned that I found really interesting is that your are a commoditized product or certainly fearful of being that way and that’s why you offer your guarantee on your product. But you are the first in the market. How do you stop people from knocking you off? Do you have a patent or are you just going to say, you know what, we’re the number one brand for this because I’m sure you feel like a rock star when people say, I was searching for this product and there you come up, but then I searched on Amazon in anticipation of this interview and you’re not the only game in town anymore.
Jurrien: Yeah, certainly. You know, I’m a pretty pragmatic guy and I like competition. I’ve been doing this for seven years now. So in the beginning you always get pretty angry when you see people knocking off your idea. We have design and utility patents in the US, China and are pursuing them globally around the world. We’re currently in I think 30 countries and counting. So we’re pretty well distributed and certainly any company that has the ability to get any kind of patent protection on their products would be insane not to invest in that once you determine that it’s a viable product. So we definitely do that. We use a whole bunch of tools that we use to pursue people that are infringing on our IP, but we do think that ultimately, all the best companies actually are more about the brand, than they are necessarily about just the product. If you went out and bought every other collapsing cup on the market, we use the highest quality materials. We actually use German standard, food safety materials, which is the most expensive stuff you can get in the world. So we don’t compromise on that, but we also think we have the coolest design. We have the coolest colors, and then the branding is what sets us apart. And I’d even say that today, you’re only seeing really just the beginning of this Stojo brand because up until very recently, I hadn’t raised any capital and I was operating the company as a one man band. We’ve currently got a staff of 10 people. We’ve raised venture capital, and I’m very consciously pursuing an aggressive marketing and brand building strategy. So when I look at brands, like Glossier in a way, and Allbirds, Tesla, Honest Company, Tom’s, right, they’re all kind of doing something that sets them apart and oftentimes it’s a focus on really uncompromising customer service. It’s a focus on trying to delight customers and give them the best possible shopping experience they can get. It’s building trust, it’s being open and honest with who you are and who you’re not, then just inspiring people through your imagery and your copy, your video content, things like that and then just doing things like giving unconditional guarantees and all that. So if you go onto Amazon and you buy one of those $8 or $9 cups, you’re never going to hear from their customer service people. They’re not going to pay your dry cleaning bill if you have an accident. They’re not going to send five replacement cups if you’re pissed off with us and try win your trust back, and then they’re not going to innovate and create better products every year, more products, and they’re not going to have the coolest looking colors. So, I think my strength is around marketing and brand building and customer service and then product development. So, I’ll take on those copy cats all day long, because they’re going to definitely take market share and it’s a concern. I’d lie if I said it wasn’t. There’s a real economic impact to that, but you look at any great brand and there’s copycats. So I think it’s just a part of being in a highly visible position in any category.
NYLP: It is a wonderful mission and you talked about ending disposable culture and I wanted to challenge you a little bit on that. Not that disposable culture is a good thing, but more that if you are already thinking about the environment and disposable culture, you may have already been drinking out of a mug, a stainless steel mug and we’re here in New York and we talk about New York brands and your products in New York centered things. So this is wonderful for the subway, the bus, etc. But a lot of people are driving cars.
Jurrien: Yup.
NYLP: They may not care for the collapsible aspect and may just say, hey, you know what, I’m going to get the biggest thermos that I can get and that’s what matters to me. Who really is the target for a Stojo, it’s the urban consumer for the most part?
Jurrien: We’ve obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this and our North Pole really is this mission to end disposable culture. So while our current suite of products is all about collapsibility, compact, leak proof, ability to carry it, all that kind of stuff, we’re expanding into hydration, we’re expanding into food storage and containment and ultimately anything that’s well designed, made of premium products and our next phase of the business is actually incorporating things like social plastics, which is a recycled ocean plastic, things like that. Instead of trying to transition away from kind of like virgin materials, we’re not going to be limited by whether something collapses or not. That’s certainly the core focus over the next couple of years, but we have a product innovation road map of 20, 30 products and they’re pretty well thought out and they’re going to be amazing. Not all of them collapse. So the way we see it is if our customers, if we treat them right, and they love our product for getting to the office and traveling and things like that, when we come out with other products that might be for the home or might be for the office and are meant to be more stationary, but maybe they feature really sustainable manufacturing processes, maybe end of life. We’re upcycling our products and offering that, there’s a whole lot of other ways that we can provide products that are delightful and beautiful for our clients and they’re sustainable that I think give us a whole lot of different things that we can expand into. So there’s that and then there’s our longer term goal, which again, and disposable culture, that’s our North Pole. We’re already working on some closed loop system ideation at the municipal level and we want to address this whole concept of takeaway containers. They’re in my life personally. I order Seamless late at night and I love it. It’s so convenient, but I have all these containers at the end of it that, kind of like my coffee cup problem five years ago, are the same. I’m feeling a little bit guilty throwing away seven Japanese plastic containers into the trash. So I think what the idea here is we’re raising capital, we’re showing our ability to distribute manufacturer design, and make money for investors and the next generation will be, how can we address an even bigger problem?
NYLP: Well, even though you alluded in an ambiguous way, they seem very exciting. Just wanted to circle back to coffee because that’s what you have right now.
Jurrien: Yeah.
NYLP: When people go into their local coffee distributor, the big chains, Dunkin and Starbucks, and then the local coffee shops, I think the local coffee shops probably give a little bit of a discount for a reusable cup, I think Starbucks does as well.
Jurrien: Yeah. Right.
NYLP: How do people kind of take advantage of that using your product?
Jurrien: A lot of places don’t advertise, but if you actually go up to the barista and you say, Hey, I’ve got my own cup, do I get a discount? Most of them will give you anywhere from 10 cents to 50 cents off. It depends on the market you’re in. Some of them will, for example, if you show up with a 16 ounce cup though, they’ll charge you for a small coffee and give you the bigger size. So those are ways to save money and if it’s a daily habit or multiple times a day habit, you do the math, it adds up pretty quickly. The Stojo definitely pays for itself and if you think on the systemic level, an organization like Starbucks reports that they have about 2% reusable cup usage rates among all their clientele, they serve 4 billion coffees a year in the United States. So if you, my hypothesis, I’ve never actually done market research, but I’m willing to bet there’s quite a sizeable part of the population that’s kind of like me, which is, I would never have been the 2% because I was never going to carry around a big travel cup with me. I just never did it. But once I had a product like Stojo, I was like, now I don’t really have an excuse anymore and we’re finding a lot of anecdotal evidence like that. So we’re sitting here going, well, if we could take that 2% and raise it to 4 or 5 or 6%, you’re talking billions of coffees a year and that has real impact. So I think that’s a pretty interesting kind of thought.
NYLP: All I want you to do is to make it and maybe those guys to make it so that when you order through the app, you can tell them that you have your own cup.
Jurrien: That’s a good idea.
NYLP: And they’re not there yet.
Jurrien: Yeah, no, they’re not there yet. As we get more and more used to using apps and things like that, I think that there are going to be more features like that. And that is one of the places that we’re really interested in kind of playing, is like imagine if in four or five years from now you can search all the Seamless and Uber Eats restaurants by, we only want the ones that have a closed loop system for containers. So, it would filter out anybody who was giving you single use containers and kind of just focusing first on sustainable minded people on the closed loop idea. So I think that’s something that we’ll be able to propose. The cool thing about kind of where Stojo is at in being in 30 countries is there are actually a lot of countries around the world that are further ahead in their sustainability, kind of habits and practices and consumer demands than we are in the U.S. and so we’ve recently done our second Starbucks, Singapore campaign, and we’ve just launched into Starbucks, Hong Kong, Starbucks, Philippines, Starbucks, Vietnam, and by the end of the year I think we’re going to be in most of Starbucks Asia. So, we’ve got our foot in the door there. Hopefully somebody in U.S. Corporate is listening, but I think big chains are starting to notice as well.
NYLP: Yeah. That was one of the things I was thinking about is how come one of these big coffee retailers doesn’t just say, you know what, this is, this is us instead of our branded cup, it’s going to be a Stojo branded cup and you’re there in Asia.
Jurrien: You know, there’s a lot of inertia in big organizations. Supply chains are really complicated. Doing anything, introducing anything into your workflow when you’ve got 23,000 locations is daunting and you have to make sure it works. You’ve got, unfortunately as a publicly traded company, all your moves are scrutinized and missteps are costly. So, I think there needs to be enough kind of proof that something’s not just a little short-term trend. And so, I think they’re just being measured, and they probably also think, hey, we can go and do this ourselves.
NYLP: Until that public company discovers your patent.
Jurrien: Maybe, I hope they do and I also hope that, I think the way that commerce is going, is that, and I think places like Google and Apple and Facebook for this, that the tech industry, people are realizing that innovation usually is occurring on the fringe. And it’s usually small start-ups that are doing the most innovative stuff. They’re willing to take chances. They’re not worried about losing their jobs and so it’s often times easier to find something that you can integrate into your overall business model by acquiring it, as opposed to trying to recreate the wheel and hoping you can do it just as well and I do think that if we play our cards right, we build the right kind of brand. I think you take a company like Dunkin or Starbucks, with a big percentage of our natural consumer base who tend to care a little bit more about things like the environment and social justice, etc. They have some image issues out there one could argue and, and I think a small start-up like Stojo, that’s very, very clear on where we stand on issues and we’re fairly progressive, I’d say very progressive actually. I think there can be some cool synergies by working with somebody like us that could benefit a larger brand that might be a little slower to move and have some things to gain by working with a small start-up.
NYLP: Sounds like a plug to all the big companies that are listening out there.
Jurrien: If you guys are listening, I’m here.
NYLP: One of the things that we always talk about is doing business in New York. And what I love about the product is that it’s a New York focused product. It doesn’t appear that way. But we talked about subway commuting. You coming up with this idea because you and your co-founders coming up with this idea because you were at a bank seeing all these coffee cups being thrown into the trash, which I imagined there are a lot of coffee cups being thrown into the trash. So could you talk about the process of innovating within New York and then building your business in New York for this product?
Jurrien: I don’t know if this product would have happened if we weren’t living in New York. The thing about being here is trash is really visible, right? You’ve got trash cans on every corner. When the city’s running really well, those trash cans get emptied on a regular basis. But when there are events and it gets crowded or there’s a snow storm or inclement weather or whatever, those things tend to overfill and you see rats and things like that. And I definitely remember Alex and I going over to Gregory’s Coffee, which was across the street, a great little coffee chain, that we threw a lot of business too, but there was a trash bin right outside on the corner and you’d look at it and it was literally like 75% coffee cups and the rest was probably water bottles and you know, whatever burger boxes or whatever. You couldn’t cross the street to get back to the bank without seeing that. And then if you are an introspective type of person, you’re sitting there holding your coffee cup, looking at that bin, then going, oh my God, like I do this five times a day, 300 days out of the year. That’s a lot of coffee cups. So I don’t think I would’ve noticed that if I was in my hometown or somewhere else that didn’t have quite the massive humanity that you do in New York. New York’s cool because, it’s such a cliché, but definitely for product, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Totally true. So I think there’s something about New York City, there’s a lot of ingenuity here. There’s an appreciation for fashion and marketing and art, hip hop culture, street art, all the museums. It’s just a really vibrant place and I’m sure there are other cities that kind of have that around the world. But I think it’s definitely here in full effect and it makes it really fun.
NYLP: That is a wonderful note to end things on. Jurrien Swarts thank you for stepping onto the New York Launch Pod and sharing your time with us.
Jurrien: Thanks so much for having me. It’s been a lot of fun.
NYLP: How do people find out more about you and Stojo?
Jurrien: Well, you can check us out on Instagram and the handles @Stojo, you can go to our website, Stojo.co, you could Google us as well. There’s a lot of information out there on us.
NYLP: And if you want to learn more about the New York Launch Pod, you can follow us on social media @nylaunchpod or visit us at nylaunchpod.com for transcripts of every episode, including this one. And if you are a super fan, Jurrien, are you a super fan?
Jurrien: I’m definitely a super fan.
NYLP: If you’re a super fan like Jurrien, please leave a review on iTunes and Apple Podcast. It is greatly appreciated and does help people discover the show.
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